April 4, 2008 at 18:22 #741
.. I can think of something else, transposing scales like you can transpose chords…
sorry for posting in a new thread, my mistake
Post edited by: zinoff, at: 2008/04/04 20:29
Post edited by: admin, at: 2008/04/14 10:14April 7, 2008 at 08:05 #1361
can you please get into more detail as to what the use case may look like?
Thanks!April 7, 2008 at 11:39 #1365
Do you mean I should learn hot wo use scales in the first place? :whistle:
If I use the preset major scale it’s specified on C Major, from there if I want to do the C/Am/F/G chord progression I have to go to the grid, or select all tracks and twiddle with the pitch.
This is my question:
How do I get let’s say the F# Major scale from the presets? (my idea was to transpose the scale)
On the side, my other questions are:
what is MOD suppose to do?
why CAD on my machines sets the track pitch to something almost always to 1.5 tones down [e.g. base track in C, enabling CAD and hitting C on the pitch ring the track is transposed to A, when I hit G it transposes to E]
Dunno, let me know, it was probably a silly idea to start with. Cheers.
Post edited by: zinoff, at: 2008/04/08 21:39April 10, 2008 at 05:22 #1368
just a few quick notes.
When in MOD you can adjust the base of the scale and build "on top" of it.
From the default (chromatic with a base of C), you would select F# as the base and press Maj, and you should get F# Major.
When in CAD, the scale composition will get translated to changes in pitch of your tracks, so you can actually use MOD to influence the page sounds altogether.
You are right in that there is no way to do a direct jump from let’s say F# Major to G Major, and that would not be a big issue to implement, maybe using the main encoder.. is that what sort of what you meant?
GabrielApril 10, 2008 at 09:30 #1384
gseher wrote:Quote:You are right in that there is no way to do a direct jump from let’s say F# Major to G Major, and that would not be a big issue to implement, maybe using the main encoder.. is that what sort of what you meant?
Yep that’s what I was after.
I haven’t yet figured out a workflow where you can freely improvise with scales and key, but the scale transpose would add something to that.
Cheers, /RApril 11, 2008 at 18:23 #1385
What about chord recognition as in ordinary arranger keyboards? This is were all stepsequencers fail. Once you’ve created a fantastic pattern you’re stuck with it. No way to improvise (meaning changing scale) on the fly other then a simple key transpose or a non-musical thing like hitting a button to change scale. If you guys can do this, then you’ve have really something.
Post edited by: bronswerk, at: 2008/04/11 20:28
Post edited by: bronswerk, at: 2008/04/11 20:29April 11, 2008 at 19:38 #1388
Actually the Octopus does this already: You can select which notes should be in your scale by pressing notes on your keyboard in realtime. However when in this mode, each key works in the same way as the switches on the Octopus. This means that you press a key and the note is added to the scale, and you press it again and the note is removed from the scale.
This is not the way your arranger keyboard or typical arpeggiator works, but it is not far off.
I must admit that I would l-o-v-e to have a "classic arp" mode where the notes of the scale is selected by only the notes you hold. This would quite fantastic, and I hope that with a little sweet-talking we can get Gabriel to make it:kiss:April 12, 2008 at 03:33 #1389
I must say that sounds highly interesting.
Although I am not sure what you mean by "chord recognition" precisely. What Lars is describing sounds actually quite nice, if it’s the same thing. Now what about when you don’t hold any keys pressed on the keyboard? No playing? No scale active, etc? Let’s talk some more.
I know that the effect of improvisations at that level is very fun, and if you see ways to boost it, I’m all ears.
Post edited by: gseher, at: 2008/04/12 05:33April 12, 2008 at 08:52 #1390
The Chief is positive, let´s elaborate!:cheer:
I am sure that the "chord regognition" is when a (arranger-) keyboard responds to the chords played, by transposing its patterns to the matching scale/chord. There is several ways of how this has been implemented, but it has always been the highlight of home organs (-says the proud owner of a GEM H7000 and Farsisa Professional 110:P ).
Very closely related is the classic polysynth arpeggio (which – I think – was introduced by Roland with Jupiter 4 in the late 70´s), and the way these work would be a good starting point.
Actually I believe that technicly speaking we are very close with the current Octopus mode of opereation. But where one note pressed, toggles the scale note on and the following note toggles the scale note off, what we are looking for is simply that the midi note-on toggles the scale note on, and the midi note-off toggles it of again.
But where the current mode is that there is always at least one note on (the base), we should have zero scale notes if no key is pressed: No keys no sound.
I am not sure if there needs to be a base note in this mode. I havent played so much with this yet, so I am not sure what difference it makes to have, say three notes in the scale selected and then moving the base note within these notes.
However I am thinking about maybe also having a "two handed mode": With your right hand you finger you chords (preferably in a two octave zone to make voicings more intuitive) and with your right hand you transpose the whole page. So in this mode the scale notes is always in relation to the key of c. So selecting C-Eb-G with your right hand and playing an F in your left hand will force the page into F-minor.
I have more going on in my head now, but I have to attend to some kids. I´ll be back.April 12, 2008 at 10:26 #1392
Chord recognition is *not* the same as a standard arpeggiator. With an arpeggiator only the keys that are pressed are played in some predefined order and possible streched out over several octaves, while chord recognition is nothing more than an analysis of the incoming chord and determination of what key and what scale that chord is. For eg. pressing C-E-G at the the keyboard stands for key = C and scale = major. Problems could arise when more exotic jazz chords are used and the use of inversions and bass notes, but it is do-able. A perfect example is how Karma does chord analysis, but Logic has this feature also. Using internal lists of possible key combinations is one solution. I don’t like the idea of hitting whatever minor chord in the right hand and that the left hand sets the root note as earlier suggested. Also when no keys are pressed, then there’s is no sound, it’s not preferable. At least there should be a "Hold" feature. More creativity is needed here.
The big question is: How should an incoming chord affects the programmed sequences?
Assume a sequence has the following pattern:
0-3-12-7-10-12-7-3. (numbers represents semitones relative to the key transpose note)
It should be obvious that the above sequence is in a minor scale because there’s a minor third (the number 3) but also there’s a seventh (the number 10). Now what to do if we hit whatever chord?
In fact we have two sets of numbers to work with; one set is the programmed set of numbers of the
original sequence and one set of numbers of the incoming chord. If I press the keys C-E-G on the keyboard then their relationship can be described as 0-4-7.
So, the situation to deal with is: sequence: 0-3-12-7-10-12-7-3 and (incoming)chord: 0-4-7. A set of rules is needed how one set infuences another set.April 12, 2008 at 10:55 #1391
I remember this very old organ from Viscount before chord recognition where you would just hit a combination of keys to get your chord. the base note would pick the key.
So if you hit:
C and E it will pick C Maj
C and Eb it would pick C min
C and D it would pick C 7
and so on.
However, ideally I’d like something that I can use on the octopus without an external keyboard.
More than that I would like to take distance from the arranger concept (chords) and to think in scales and scales modes, ie. know your dorian from your aeolian, I think it’s easier to get something useful out of improvising in this way.
Anyway I’ll have to think a bit more about it…
/RApril 12, 2008 at 11:15 #1393
The concept of sets as above described is probably from a programmers point of view the most logical way. Forget scales, major, minor whatever. Just deal with numbers and try to define a set of rules so there is always a musical result. I don’t mind if there are some limitations, if it’s musically interesting, then it’s fine. Experimentation is the key.April 12, 2008 at 11:35 #1394
Hey, i am no programmer, so I don’t really care what’s most logical for one, i know that you can represent a scale as a set… but what I know is that scales are already in the octopus and i want to take the most out of them.
/RApril 12, 2008 at 11:40 #1395Quote:Chord recognition is *not* the same as a standard arpeggiator.
You are right (I only said they were related.
About the rules: I believe ther already exists a set of rules in the octopus. Think of how it works when you have a page with many notes and you force it to, say a triad. The more we can make use of building on top of already existing features, the easier (more logic) it will be to use (and to program, I reason).April 12, 2008 at 12:12 #1396Quote:I don’t like the idea of hitting whatever minor chord in the right hand and that the left hand sets the root note as earlier suggested. Also when no keys are pressed, then there’s is no sound, it’s not preferable. At least there should be a "Hold" feature. More creativity is needed here.
Hi Bronswerk. What we are trying to do here I think, is to have some kind of creative flow. What I hear is a lot of "saying no". I am sure you have the best intentions, but a careful phrasing of words can make a big difference. E.g I understand that it will be nice to have a hold feature, and that it will be your preferred way of using this chord-follow-stuff, but when you state thatQuote:when no keys are pressed, then there’s is no sound, it’s not preferable
then you are excluding that for other people it wil be a super cool feature that you have "gating" of a page, built into the chord-follow mode. Think of e.g. one track of step chords playing a rhythm (including rests) sending notes to a page in chord-follow mode via a virtual midi channel.
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