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Grid mode
1. Having several adjacent pages in a row, page lengt only works when cluster is activated. (I hope this is not intended, as I think it would be a lot more fun if page length was working all the time.)
2. If you set page lenght to 4 steps, but set page repeat to 4 times, you will hear the page play for all its 16 steps. This does not make sense to me. I was expecting to hear the first 4 steps being repeated 4 times.
3. Page lenght does not work at all if there is only one page in the row.
4. If these issues are fixed there should be potential for extreme amounts of fun to be had, tweaking page length and repeats while toggling page clusters:woohoo:
Post edited by: admin, at: 2008/05/04 07:48
Post edited by: LDT, at: 2008/05/05 22:31
Lars, great point. The way things are, are actually geared towards allowing a playing single page to become a "continuum", as opposed to sending everything back to "square one" every 16 steps (16 is the default page length). Think multiple track speeds and chains etc. So we are talking from two different perspectives.
What I propose is to have the "re-trigger" behavior for page lengths <16 and "continuum" behavior for page lengths 16 and more. I have just prototyped it and it makes a good first impression.
Post edited by: gseher, at: 2008/05/04 07:47
Imagine you had a single page playing, and the page had half its tracks at 1/3 of the main clock speed. What happens to them after 16 steps of the main clock?
a) you can send them back to position one together with the normal speed tracks
b) you can let them continue from where they are so the structure can evolve further – to produce what I quicly called a continuum.
The current implementation favors b) very much, but I can see how both a) and b) are desirable, hence my proposed solution.
Hope I makes a bit more sense now
But that would mean that you can’t work with a 3/4 meter or 15/16 (or whatever less than 4/4 meter).
Isn’t that a bit limiting?I don’t think the page length property and track retrigger mode should be linked this way, because the result would be that pages with a page length less than 16 steps can no longer have tracks larger than that same amount of steps.
Let me explain. Image a page with two tracks, one 8-step track with drums, and a 24-step track with some ambient space stuff on it. The drum track is what I call the ‘dominant’ track, I don’t want the page to be cut off in the middle of that track. To guarantee this, I set page lenght to 8 steps, so I know the page will always run full 8-step cycles before the page is switched.
Suppose my page is put in a cluster, and I want it to repeat 3 times. That’s 3 x 8 = 24 steps before the next page in the cluster is selected. During those 24 steps I want my 21-step track of course to run it’s full cycle.
However, this proposal cuts off all tracks to 8 steps (in this example), because when page length is set to a value less than 16, all tracks will be automatically retriggered when the page cycles, which is at 8 steps in this example. My beautiful 21-step track is butchered down to the first 8 steps. Arrrrggghhh!
That is, I *think* this would happen.
Post edited by: robert, at: 2008/05/05 20:05
Gabriel, but what about my 1. and 3. ? Is this how it is meant to be?
I do understand the concept of the current mode of operation more now, but I should probably play some more with it (with material as you describe) to fully appreciate it.
Just to exemplify how it collides with another way of making music:
You have a page of 16 steps that contains drums and bass. Think of it as a sampled loop. Now you make a cluster of several copies of this page. The idea is to create new rhythms by stting different page lenghts and repeat numbers to the different copies of the page. But as it is now, this (quite simple stuff) is not possible.Quote:What I propose is to have the "re-trigger" behavior for page lengths <16 and "continuum" behavior for page lengths 16 and more. I have just prototyped it and it makes a good first impression.The continuum mode will probably be missed by some for the <16 page lenghts. Perhaps two modes of page lenght? Continuum ("nice") and Retrigger ("rude").
Been working with it now. And now I understand why it works as is does (my questions 1. and 3. are cleared up.)
I like the beta version. For me it has only one quirk, but the workaround is simple. If I have a 16 step page that I want to loop at a 20 step lenght, I have to copy the page and make a two page cluster. Then it works as I want.
I like it, but the question is if other guys are missing something now.robert wrote:
Quote:I don’t think the page length property and track retrigger mode should be linked this way, because the result would be that pages with a page length less than 16 steps can no longer have tracks larger than that same amount of steps.Let me explain. Image a page with two tracks, one 8-step track with drums, and a 24-step track with some ambient space stuff on it. The drum track is what I call the ‘dominant’ track, I don’t want the page to be cut off in the middle of that track. To guarantee this, I set page lenght to 8 steps, so I know the page will always run full 8-step cycles before the page is switched.
Suppose my page is put in a cluster, and I want it to repeat 3 times. That’s 3 x 8 = 24 steps before the next page in the cluster is selected. During those 24 steps I want my 21-step track of course to run it’s full cycle.
However, this proposal cuts off all tracks to 8 steps (in this example), because when page length is set to a value less than 16, all tracks will be automatically retriggered when the page cycles, which is at 8 steps in this example. My beautiful 21-step track is butchered down to the first 8 steps. Arrrrggghhh!
That is, I *think* this would happen.
<br /><br />PHow about using step skips to adjust your drum track to 8 steps of length and then set the page length to 24? Wouldn’t that work?
gseher wrote:How about using step skips to adjust your drum track to 8 steps of length and then set the page length to 24? Wouldn’t that work?[/quote]
That wouldn’t really work with the new page switch mode that I proposed yesterday.
Because while in reality the drum track is only 8 steps long, the new page switch mode would keep me waiting for up to 24 steps, only because the page repeat property was sneaked into the page length property.I understand the fun that could be had with this feature, and I understand the need for UI space to get stuff like this implemented. The only thing I want to get across is that we pay the price of uniform flexibility this way. Some day someone will report this behavior as a bug, I think.
But hey, it’s just one guy complaining, and probably many more of you who want it! I also vaguely remember that you run the (software) shop, Gabriel.
Actually I must admit that with all the great input you guys are providing you are not making my life necessarily easier, but I am so grateful for that!
Guys, I really think we should find a way to have a track-retrigger-at-page-length feature, enabled by something else than the page-length < 16 condition. I’d love to see the original idea of page ‘cuts’ implemented, but I think that the proposed way to implement this in the UI seriously butchers the free flowing continuun model of tracks of individual lengths.
In my childish mind, getting the page cutting done would involve two steps:
1. Enable track retrigger mode some way (some knob).
2. Start playing with the page length property.Isn’t this possible? Please?
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