Logic users please help…

OS_CE Forums Octopus User exchange Logic users please help…

This topic contains 13 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by  greg kernaghan 10 years, 4 months ago.

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  • #897

    gseher
    Keymaster

    Hi,
    I’ve been making some progress with my Octopus,
    but am now running up against some Logic problems.
    I know there are a few Logic users here so maybe they can assist!

    What I have done:

    1) Setup Octopus with both MIDI ports to my AMT-8.
    2) assigned a channel splitter to each Port in Logic
    for the 2 Octopus ports.

    3) Created an "Octopus" Logic instrument in the
    environment and set its MIDI channel to "All".
    4) connected a cable from this to the splitter.
    5) On CH1 of the splitter sent this to my
    Drum box (drumstation which is MIDI CH10)
    6) on CH2 of the splitter, sent this to my
    Doepfer Modular (MIDI CH1).

    Start Octopus and the drums and bass play
    as expected. I can add more destinations to the
    splitter OK – eg to another mono synth.

    But back in Logic, if I select another Instrument
    in the Arrange screen eg another synth, the
    Channel assignments made in the Octopus now
    go to the instrument selected in the arrange screen
    and start playing. I have to select the Octopus’
    track only and so cannot play my other synths
    within Logic.

    What I want to do is use Octopus to play the
    instruments that are assigned to it but then
    be able to select an Instrument in Logic and play
    that over the top, eg octopus handles the bass/drums
    and I can play chords in Logic without the selected
    instrument being triggered by the Octopus.

    I know this can be done, but I do not know how.

    Can someone please advise?!

    rachel

    #2147

    gseher
    Keymaster

    I cracked the best part of it…
    I will write up the process here to assist others as vague descriptions are not useful!

    I spent about half a day on this and most of tonight.
    Now I have it so that I can use the Octopus to trigger
    selected Instruments through Logic but still use
    my keyboard controller to play selected tracks in
    Logic without Octopus treading on my turf!

    The part I have not got yet, I will write up separately, which is recording the MIDI output of each instrument into Logic, from the Octopus. This is purely for monitoring purposes at this stage,
    using Logic as a big MIDI router.

    In all this time, Logic is stopped – ie I am not
    sending a Clock to Logic and it is not syncing the
    Octopus.

    Anyway, for MIDI monitoring and jamming with the Octopus in Logic here is the walkthrough:

    Go to the Environment and Create a new Page named
    "Octopus".

    In this new environment, Create a Multi Instrument
    for each Octopus MIDI Port. Label the Multi Instruments "Octopus 1" & "Octopus 2".

    Leave all the channel boxes unchecked (ie no icon)
    and click on the Global part of the Multi Instrument.

    In the Inspector column on the left, Set the MIDI Port
    to the ones your Octopus is attached to, in my case
    this is Port 8 and Port 16 in my 2 AMT’s.
    In the Inspector, set the MIDI channel to "All".

    Create a Channel Splitter object for each Multi Instrument Octopus 1 & 2.

    Cable the Multi Instrument to each one. I use
    a Monitor in between for debug purposes.

    Each MIDI channel on the Splitter can go to any
    destination you can get off the picklist (Option|Click the cable). So the Instrument must have at least an Environment Object representing it as a destination, eg an Instrument or Multi Instrument or VI.

    The MIDI channel of the target instrument is irrelevant.

    Make sure your Octopus is setup to transmit
    data on the track/port/channel of your choice.

    In my demo I am a newbie so I only have 2 instruments setup in Octopus right now but it is the same
    for 32. I have a Drumstation set to Channel 10
    as it’s MIDI channel in the instrument, Logic and
    AudioMidiSetup. I have a Doepfer A100 set to Channel
    1, likewise. Both are on their own AMT port.

    But the Octopus has Channel 1 set for the Drum parts (DS) and Channel 2 set for the Bassline (A100).

    Select Ch1 in the Channel Splitter and cable it
    to the chosen instrument. In my case "Drumstation".

    Select Ch2 in the Channel Splitter and cable it
    to the chosen instrument. This time it’s "A100".

    Now all your MIDI port assignments are complete.

    The next step is to give Octopus its own realm
    to play in.

    Go to Environment|Clicks And Ports

    Ensure you have a Physical Input somehow connected
    to a Sequencer Output. Mine has a keyboard and
    a couple of transformers in the middle, from the SUM
    out to the Seq Out.

    On the Physical Input, Locate the MIDI Ports your
    Octopus is using. Mine uses Port 8 and Port 16
    for Octopus Ports 1 & 2.

    Create a Monitor Object for each Port. Label them
    "Octopus 1" & "Octopus 2".

    Select the Physical Input that represents your
    Octopus Port 1 – in my case it’s Port 8.

    Connect it to the Monitor.

    Connect the output of the Monitor to cable up
    to the Octopus 1 Multi Instrument you just created.

    Repeat for Octopus Port 2, using the appropriate Physical Input in Logic.

    Note: If you have Octopus Port 2 configured and cabled to your MIDI interface, you must cable it from the Physical Input Port you have connected, to the Octopus 2 Multi Instrument even if you do not use it, because otherwise you will get summed data sent to the SUM port of the Physical Input.

    You do not need anything connected to the Channel Splitter outputs if you don’t need to yet.

    Start Octopus – you should see MIDI Data coming through the Monitor(s) depending on how you have the Ports setup. You should also hear the appropriate
    music being played by the appropriate instrument.

    Go to the Arrange Page in Logic. Run the Octopus.
    It should not trigger any instrument except the ones connected via the Environment.

    Select different instruments in the Arrange tracks.
    You should be able to jam along with the Octopus
    as your backing or whatever without Octopus
    triggering your currently selected Logic track.

    Note that this setup could well work for other
    gear as well, such as MPC’s and the rest.

    At this point, I have only got a monitoring
    setup going. It is what I need to work with the
    Octopus and jam with it via my controller keyboard
    together. It may well work in a "live" setting,
    but remember, Octopus is not syncing and Logic
    is "stopped".

    I will try to get MIDI recording
    of the tracks going from this configuration
    and then try and see what sync Options I can
    have. It may involves tweaks to the Environment.

    If anyone wants to post this as an FAQ or something
    for other Logic users, go ahead. I can also offer
    up the Environment I put together, but it is
    for Logic 6.4.3.

    rachel B)

    #2148

    gseher
    Keymaster

    Post edited by: rachel, at: 2008/12/05 13:52

    #2150

    gseher
    Keymaster

    Hi Rachel,

    I think you’ve pretty much nailed it. The trick is indeed to seperate your incoming data (eg. Octopus) right at the level of "Physical Input". Only data you want to record goes to the "to the Recording & Thru" object (and that’s the current selected track).

    Recording your Octopus data is a little bit trickier because you use 2 different ports instead of 1, but it’s possible. If you need any help, let me know. Screenshots are handy in these situations.

    #2154

    gseher
    Keymaster

    Mmmm, OK, after my success I have fallen into
    another hole.

    What I wanted to do next was configure everything so I can input notes and chords into Octopus via a keyboard,
    which I read in the Navigation Guide.

    So I set a MIDI channel to a track, press SEL
    for the track and hit the record button.

    But depending on how I select the keyboard in Logic,
    I get either no input at all or an incredible screaming
    MIDI feedback loop that stops when I deselect the
    track on the Octopus.

    So it seems the Octopus is receiving my streams from
    the keyboard, echoing them to the Out port and back
    again.

    I tried a couple of different approaches but none
    seem to work that well. I am hoping I don’t need
    to directly attach a keyboard to the Octopus but
    go via my Interface etc…

    rachel

    #2155

    gseher
    Keymaster

    Hi Rachel

    I have not studied the details of your setup, but I will just pass my general advice in such situations:

    Paper and pencil!

    Draw a flow diagram of your setup, and there is a fair chance, that you solve your problem quickly. When the problem is solved, make an even nicer version of the diagram which you keep. This is your personal "setup manual", that you should always remember to update when you make changes.
    So when in a year when you get a new computer and everything is re-done, it will be a walk in the park to setup your gear.

    Good luck.

    -Lars

    #2156

    gseher
    Keymaster

    Hmmm yes, I have already done pretty much this.
    And my observation is that the Octopus is echoing
    the MIDI input to it, back to itself.
    Is there a MIDI echo off function in there or does
    it only work for sync?

    I might try and mess with the sync modes and
    see if that helps. My basic map of the MIDI IO
    is very simple! Thanks for your help….

    rachel

    #2157

    gseher
    Keymaster

    Sorry to keep replying to my own posts, but I
    am trying to nut this out best I can.

    I think I can rule out the MIDI loop coming from Logic.

    If I assign and arm a track for recording, as soon
    as I hit Play on the Octopus, I get an instant
    MIDI loop and all the output data is coming right
    back in.

    I know the MIDI echo feature in the Octopus is a recent thing. So perhaps most people haven’t come across the problem yet.

    I was wondering if it were possible to add a switch to enable/disable echoing the MIDI output back to the Input via the firmware? I know this would fix my
    problem pretty much. A bit like a "local control"
    setting or whatever.

    Maybe I am totally off the beam. But I have tried
    different combinations of connections and come to the
    same result. In any case, I guess I need more
    advise. Output of the Octopus itself is fine.
    It is only when enabling MIDI input record mode it
    goes into a loop and I have had to reset it from
    locking up a couple of times tonight already.

    Any advise would be welcome!

    (edit)
    Made some progress. I pulled the MIDI In of the
    Octopus out of the AMT interface and plugged it straight into my controller keyboard MIDI out.

    Then I setup and armed a track – it was able to
    be triggered by my keyboard no problems.

    This tells me that Logic is somehow echoing
    everything back to the Octopus, which is
    accepting the data and feeding back into a MIDI loop.

    But now I can see no way forward with Logic to
    fix this.

    What I think will fix it is me spending more money
    on a MIDI Thru box for my controller keyboard,
    which only has MIDI In/Out, but no Thru.
    So the idea would be to split the Output of my controller to go to Logic via the MIDI interface
    for "legacy" purposes and send MIDI messages from
    it via a direct split of the MIDI out, when I need
    to arm Record and play into a track directly.

    But this is a messy solution. Does anyone else
    think that being able to enable/disable the MIDI
    echo Out of the Octopus would work here? My feeling
    is that it would. But I am new to this. I don’t
    really feel like spending another $60 on a Thru box,
    when the software hackers could possibly do a switch
    in the firmware, but I am probably asking too much,
    too early :whistle:

    rachel

    Post edited by: rachel, at: 2008/12/08 17:56

    #2158

    gseher
    Keymaster

    If you get a midi loop there’s still something wrong with your "environment" configuration in Logic. Never route the output from Octopus to the Logic-track that represents Octopus again. There’s your midi loop.

    Instead use 2 different scenario’s, one for recording and one for monitoring. You can use a "switch" (Logic object) for switching between:

    a. Recording. The track object is connected to all kind of synths BUT NOT Octopus. Route your Octopus (Logic) input to the "Recording & Thru" object.

    and

    b. Monitoring. Route your Octopus (Logic) input directly from "Physical Inputs" to your synth objects.

    The switch can be used when strategic placed between "Physical Input" and "Recording & Thru".

    Used this scenario many times when I was working with more computers (soft sequencer stuff) or other midi generating gear.

    #2159

    greg kernaghan
    Participant

    Dear Rachel

    I’m a SE Qld based Octopus newby struggling with the Logic multi-timbral implementation of my octopus.

    I have read and attempted to follow your posts on this with the channel splitter environment solution, but am still stuck.

    Is there any way I could perhaps call you to solve this one over the phone (happy to Paypal some dosh for your time) please?

    Thanks very much Rachel

    Greg Kernaghan
    0409 979899
    gregkernaghan@hotmail.com

    #2445

    rachel polanskis
    Participant

    Hi,
    give me a day or so and I will pass you my Login environment, which you can then import
    into Logic and use to connect to the Octopus – I am working funny hours this week and so am
    not always available!

    rachel

    #2446

    greg kernaghan
    Participant

    thanks rachel… that would be awesome!

    gk

    #2447

    rachel polanskis
    Participant

    I will ring you tomorrow (wednesday) and give you my email address!

    Then I will try to have this setup for you as soon as I can. I have not been near my studio and
    nothing is powered up the last few night :dry:

    If you are using Logic Express, my setup will not work – I am using 6.4.3 so it should transfer
    to Logic 8 Ok…. What kind of MIDI interface are you using?

    rachel

    #2448

    greg kernaghan
    Participant

    Auto demix by channel if multitrack recording

    My Logic simultaneous recording channel mapping issues have been simply solved
    by the following apple support post (reproduced below)

    gk

    http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2064793&tstart=0

    abridged


    I assume your instruments have already been defined.

    Recording on Multiple MIDI Tracks

    You may occasionally want to record multiple MIDI tracks at the same time. Often, this will be data recorded from an external sequencer, or played from a keyboard that is split across multiple MIDI channels.

    You can also simply play the same MIDI channel information from your keyboard, but record it to multiple tracks. One reason why you would do this is to create layered instrument parts.

    To record regions on several MIDI tracks:

    • Switch on the Record Enable buttons of the tracks you wish to record to.
    Note: Selecting an external MIDI or instrument track which is not record-enabled will turn off the record-enabled status of all other external MIDI or instrument tracks.
    Record-enabled audio tracks are not affected.

    There are two operating modes available for simultaneous recording of multiple MIDI tracks: Layer or Multiplayer recording.

    • When Layer Recording: Incoming MIDI events are sent to all record-enabled MIDI tracks. You can listen to all selected instruments before, and during, recording.
    • A MIDI region is created on the selected track after recording.
    • Aliases of the MIDI region on the selected track are recorded on the other tracks.
    The advantage of this approach is that any subsequent edits to the “parent” MIDI region will affect all aliases, ensuring that all layered tracks remain identical.

    • When Multiplayer Recording: Incoming MIDI events are distributed to the various record-enabled tracks, in accordance with transmitted MIDI channel numbers.
    • The channel of the incoming event must correspond to the channel of a record-enabled track, in order for this functionality to work.
    • If no track with a corresponding channel number is found, the event will be routed, and recorded, onto the selected track.

    You should ensure that each of your MIDI controllers transmit on different channels. If this is not possible, simply use different inputs on your MIDI interface, and change the MIDI channel of each input, using a transformer object between the Physical Input and Sequencer Input.

    To switch from the Layer recording mode (default) to Multiplayer recording mode:
    • Switch on the File > Project Settings > Recording > “Auto demix by channel if multitrack recording” option.

    Brazeca



    (thanks Brazeca – gk)

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